page title icon Episode 007: Two-Million Podcasts (But Not Really)

2M Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, but not really. Right? Right.

Pedro sits this one out, while Roman and Tanner talk about this new 2M.

  1. [00:03:18] Almost no one wants to pay for podcasts. Any one shocked about that?
  2. [00:10:17] More podcasts means more less value from ads as it presents more options for ad buyers
  3. [00:23:20] Listener Edie asks, “How do you structure a podcast?”
  4. [00:22:19] Listener Maryam asks, “How can podcasters more easily identify their target market? Their actual audience, instead of guessing who they are.”

Reference Links

Turns out not many people want to pay for podcasts (color us shocked) [Source: InsideRadio]

We’ve got 2M+ podcasts on the Apple Podcasts store now (and that’s not good news) [Source: Daniel J. Lewis]

Thanks to our Listeners for their questions

Edie Okamoto, Jeff Etringer (, and Maryam Bitege.

Automated Transcript from Episode #007 (expand to view)

Automated transcripts are not 100% accurate. Please use this transcript only for cursory reference. If you need to quote any of our content, please contact us.

Tanner Campbell: This episode of real talk, podcasting is brought to you in part by your tech and the, your tech report podcast. Why tr cuts through the megapixels, gigabits and geek, speak with reviews, unboxings, and insights. That answer the two questions consumers care most about is this new gadget service or product worth my money.

[00:00:19] And should I actually buy it? If you’re looking to answer those questions for yourself before your next tech purchase, visit your tech first and save yourself the hassle of returning something that didn’t live up to the hype. Once again, that’s your tech Hey there. Welcome back to real talk podcasting.

[00:00:40] I’m your cohost Tanner and I’m joined today with just one cohost. What’s up Roman? What is up? Man, our boy Pedro is he’s out today. It happens. Sometimes you have to

[00:00:50] Roman Prokopchuk: go a Mia once in a while.

[00:00:52] Tanner Campbell: That’s right. Don’t let him know. Don’t let him know what really happened wrong. When we got mad at him, we’re in the process of replacing him.

[00:00:57] We’ve dumped him somewhere. Yeah.

[00:00:59] Roman Prokopchuk: Somebody with a Peter or another Paul, somebody starting with the P.

[00:01:04] Tanner Campbell: All right. Well, let’s start with a little bit of housekeeping. We got a new review. Five stars. Thank you so much. This one comes from Dwayne actually, uh, who I think has just recently relocated from afar to the U S and I think will be a host on one of our upcoming fireside chats.

[00:01:19] So thank you, Dana, for that. As she says, five stars. Love it. If you’re looking for an honest opinion and raw conversation about what’s out there in the podcasting world, listen to this, their tips are valuable. I am. So looking forward to the future episodes. Thanks again, doing that super nice of you. And we really appreciate the review.

[00:01:39] Roman, speaking of people being out of town, actually, you’re going to be out of town next week, right?

[00:01:44] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. I will be in a cottage in a Amish country. So

[00:01:49] Tanner Campbell: is that a, is that a cover story? I don’t think our listeners know. That you interned with the secret service.

[00:01:56] Roman Prokopchuk: I did. I ha I held a top secret federal clearance.

[00:01:59] So, so this is really a

[00:02:00] Tanner Campbell: drop house, a safe house. Where are you really doing? Roman?

[00:02:04] Roman Prokopchuk: I’m actually going off grid for like two days with my wife and the, uh, the baby we have in a little Airbnb cottage with, uh, Amish people all around us. So no technology, no light. Well, we will have it. They will not.

[00:02:20] Tanner Campbell: He’s going to turn any

[00:02:21] Roman Prokopchuk: butter.

[00:02:21] Ah, I have, I mean, it’s, it’s literally hour and a half from me, so we’ve done like the horse and buggy rides and all that kind of stuff. Is

[00:02:30] Tanner Campbell: this in Jersey or is this in pencil

[00:02:32] Roman Prokopchuk: in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

[00:02:34] Tanner Campbell: So you’ve been before then this a second stay at this

[00:02:36] Roman Prokopchuk: Airbnb or. No, it’s the first I’ve been to the area several times.

[00:02:40] I mean, it’s only hour and a half for me. I was in some kind of cottage hotel type thing, like four or five months ago, which was cool. And it’s kind of low key relaxing. It’s like the country. So nice once in a while to, uh, get away from technology.

[00:02:54] Tanner Campbell: Yeah, peaceful. I would imagine with all the beeping and buzzing and.

[00:02:57] That of noxious electricity and microphones and podcasts.

[00:03:01] Roman Prokopchuk: I may just bring my board at my microphone just so I could learn it.

[00:03:05] Tanner Campbell: And you just stand there and you’re like, can I plug these in? And they’re like, no, what, what are those things you’ve brought with you? Is the Airbnb electricity

[00:03:12] Roman Prokopchuk: free, no TV, but there’s wifi.

[00:03:14] There’s like a jacuzzi tub in the, in the room and all that. So. Well, you want to get cracking?

[00:03:19] Tanner Campbell: Uh

[00:03:20] Roman Prokopchuk: let’s uh, let’s just do it live,

[00:03:21] Tanner Campbell: right. Let’s jump in

[00:03:30] Roman. You’re my only co-host today. And so you’re up first.

[00:03:33] Roman Prokopchuk: What do you got for us? Awesome. So, uh, I know on clubhouse, in general, we’ve talked about kind of monetization in the sense of a subscription model. So there’s been several studies done recently and, uh, the verdict is out that a lot of people said they’re not willing to pay for podcasts.

[00:03:53] You don’t say so. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, uh, most don’t want to pay for podcasts. Basically. The question was how likely would you be to pay or donate money to access or listen to a podcast in the next 12 months? Very likely 2%, somewhat likely 14, not very likely. 39. Not at all. Likely. 45%. So it’s one of those things where I think they’re talking about a fully paid model.

[00:04:19] So like the whole show as a subscription, I know I’ve discussed it and we’ve discussed it on clubhouse. And in general, in terms of having something in terms of bonus content, that’s. Behind the paywall, but you still have your general show, which I think is still

[00:04:33] Tanner Campbell: a good idea how that very likely percentage is right between that one to 3%.

[00:04:39] I always talk about, did you think of that when you saw it, were you like 10 years ago? I feel

[00:04:42] Roman Prokopchuk: happy about this. Yeah. I mean, it came to mind in terms of like how, how much of your audience is truly that loyal, like in the, you know, Patrion sense example or other platforms where you have patrons or people that, you know, compensate you one way or another.

[00:04:59] And I don’t know if it’s sad or just like the. The statistical, uh, you know, percentage across the board where it’s usually one to 2% that you can carry over to have them pay you for that specific piece of

[00:05:13] Tanner Campbell: content. But it’s wild that that’s 84%, 84% are in our, like firmly in the no camp. Is there any good news in this piece of news you found this week or not at all?

[00:05:25] There no light at the end of this tunnel,

[00:05:27] Roman Prokopchuk: it was a word kind of survey. I think, uh, the last kind of question they asked was, you know, in the future, would you consider it and people say, yeah, I would possibly consider it in terms of in North America, because I mean, we’ve discussed this also like the listening behavior per country per continent is a little different.

[00:05:44] I know, obviously we’ve discussed North America and somebody actually in one of the rooms asked about increasing listenership and. Arab countries. So in the middle East, so it’s a whole different kind of landscape where, you know, certain countries, there’s only been like 10%. Of the population really exposed to the podcast medium, but since the growth of podcasting in the U S and the continued growth of listenership, I mean, new listenership may mean, you know, a new demographic that is, you know, open to paying and kind of getting in that pool.

[00:06:17] The other parts of the survey that was done, I believe by you gov basically said the biggest group representing six in 10 of those surveyed said that they had no problem with the mix of ad supported and subscription-based podcasts. So it makes those, so they were. Largely opposed to fully subs, you know, subscription, but didn’t mind as much to have a ad supported and subscription subscription-based mix.

[00:06:42] Tanner Campbell: I really liked that. You’re wrapping your story up with that because it segues really nicely into another piece of news that came out last week. That was that we hit the 2 million podcasts in Apple podcast, Mark. And that of course is Daniel J. Lewis from the audacity to podcast doing that research.

[00:06:58] Further, not just did we hit that 2 million Mark, but only 39, 10% of them have published an episode within the last 90 days. According to Daniel J. Lewis. So people are not willing to pay by and large, but they’re okay with like subscriptions and ad based stuff. But at the same time, we’re seeing 2 million podcasts.

[00:07:18] Only 39% of them have published within the last 90 days. The restaurant pod fade. I wonder that 39% as the podcast count goes up, is that 39% holding or is it dropping lower? And lower and lower with a natural churn. So we’re just creating a landscape or a landfill of dead podcasts that are mostly not producing anymore.

[00:07:41] Roman Prokopchuk: I mean, it may be, it may be like a, like a stationary around 39% because the amount of being well, it depends. It can out, I can’t

[00:07:50] Tanner Campbell: be, if this becomes 3 million, it won’t stay at 39%.

[00:07:54] Roman Prokopchuk: I mean, it may be close if, if, if it’s the same behavior, if whatever it is, what is it? A 50 or 61%. Just drop off and that same 39 per se balance out.

[00:08:07] I mean, it’s not going to be identical. I agree with you, but it could be 40, 41, 42 in terms of percentage of people that will the new podcasts that will stay active versus the people that just jump in and like, Oh crap, this is actually harder than I thought, let me stop this. So how many of those are just shells?

[00:08:25] Like, I mean, I’ve seen. Podcasts that are, you know, a trailer in one episode. And it’s ridiculous because it’s just abandoned. I mean, it’s kind of sad, but, um, I don’t think that number that 39 will go drastically up. Like I think maybe it’ll fluctuate to maybe like 45, but you think it’ll go down.

[00:08:41] Tanner Campbell: Yeah. I think it’s going to drop big time.

[00:08:43] I think we had a huge influx of people who were like, Oh, I’m going to make podcasts now in the pandemic. And they’re, they’re not going to hit a year and before they hit a year, this two mill is going to drop. Well, the 2 million will maybe go up a little bit more, but I think that 39% is going to drop. So these people,

[00:09:01] Roman Prokopchuk: like if all goes well, economies open up, people start going back to the actual office or brick and mortar locations.

[00:09:08] They’re not necessarily going to be at home and being able to have the same time to record. So maybe if they were obviously laid off for a load, what have you, and they got into podcasting. Then now this time is replaced with, you know, their previous endeavors. Then they’re forced to kind of drop off or they don’t have enough time and it’s not missing.

[00:09:26] Maybe they’re not as passionate or it’s not as important, or, you know, it takes too much time. So I guess in that sense, knowing how many podcasts got created within the pandemic. Timeline then I think that that does make sense to

[00:09:41] Tanner Campbell: me. I don’t think it matters if they go back to work. I think that even if the pandemic state, nobody wants that to happen.

[00:09:48] I still think that this is a called shot. I want to be wrong about this, but I, I can almost guarantee that it’s going to happen. That 39% is going to drop to sub 30% by the end of 2021,

[00:10:00] Roman Prokopchuk: um, survival of the

[00:10:01] Tanner Campbell: fittest. I mean, will we be here? Will we even be here,

[00:10:04] Roman Prokopchuk: Roman? I mean, I’ll be, I mean, I got it by other, by show, by solo show.

[00:10:08] My answer, you base your, I got a hundred and Q a I’m set.

[00:10:12] Tanner Campbell: You could quit now. And we wouldn’t know until like 20, 25, but I really think we are just stockpiling a graveyard of it’s like pet cemetery, but podcast cemetery. That’s that’s what it is. And the thing is that as we have this proliferation of shows, the thing about the ads part that bothers me is increasingly as we get more shows, let’s say this number holds right.

[00:10:36] And let’s even say, it goes up, we get 3 million podcasts and 50% of them are active. Let’s say it goes the other way. I’m totally wrong. If I’m somebody who’s buying ad spots, like I’m the buyer. I’m the guy who wants to have the ad on a podcast. And I go to as an example, not picking on mid Midroll, don’t have any direct experience with them.

[00:10:53] I just know of them as a company. And I say, Hey, here’s my 10 grand. I want my 2 million impressions or whatever it is that I’m getting for that money. I’m going to get mine. But, but the more podcasts we have, the more you can spread that spend out across multiple podcasts, the less money each individual podcast will be able to garner.

[00:11:12] So I think. Not only are we going to see that number go down, but if I’m wrong and it goes up, I think we’re going to see a total destruction of the CPM that the CPM rate that podcasters are going to get when, and if they get anything. And I think that’s going to be exacerbated by the fact that they’re going to get less of the share of the overall spend of people buying ads.

[00:11:31] I think like these $25, $18 CPMs for 30 seconds, 62nd ad spots. They’re out, dude. They’re out. They’re going to be more like YouTube in two years, for sure. Yeah. I mean,

[00:11:41] Roman Prokopchuk: I think. Well, I’ve done media buys, you know, as we discussed with like PRX on TedTalks daily and shows like that in the past, um, I think the ads within a podcast are more effective when you couple it, and it’s a, you know, a multi kind of channel approach where that podcast or that podcast network.

[00:12:04] Has additional, um, assets in order to reach the same audience and can touch them, have multi-touch does. So per se, like I’ve done stuff on NPR. So let’s say NPR, a specific show that show may have a website you’re seeing on the website as well. Then on, there may be a, you know, a bad banner ad or obviously a dis a display ad, and you have multiple touches to the same audience.

[00:12:34] So you’re kind of top of mind. And that becomes the best way of kind of reaching that audience and being relevant because obviously it takes a crap load of touchpoints to actually have someone do the desired action. I mean, usually if I’m running a campaign, Um, uh, you know, in terms of, uh, different levels and different, uh, channels, it’s usually seven to 10 touch points.

[00:12:58] That being organic, that being display, uh, uh, SEO, organic social paid, social paid search media buys and so on and so forth. To reach the same specific demographic in order to really be able to resonate with them and stay top of mind versus, you know, their competitors.

[00:13:19] Tanner Campbell: Now, again, I’m the ad buyer going to mid role.

[00:13:22] And my ad is on my ad is on real talk podcasting, right? What is real talk podcasting and to get out of that, I mean, we have a website and all those different things, but like most people don’t have that. So I just feel like the ads environment for the pot for the creator is, is going to be decimated over the next couple of years, unless they have those more mature approaches to podcasting because eventually they’ll stop being chosen even as the ones that would, that would get their spot because people may not know this, but if you have dynamic ad insertion like enabled through your podcast host or.

[00:14:00] Uh, if you’re working with mid that you say, I have X amount of spots in my show, but doesn’t mean that every spot is going to get filled the ad buyer, get the, the matcher and the relationship has to pick and match you with the buyer and you might not get picked.

[00:14:15] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. I mean, the other thing is it’s like it becomes so competitive that independent shows can compete in that traditional model.

[00:14:25] So they have to develop more direct relationships and contact and have a plan and a strategy to build these relationships directly, to get the most value and have different deal structures. So they’re more in favor of the actual podcast, because like I went to PRX, PRX was able just on that one show to get me 200,000 impressions, you know, in like two weeks, I mean, I paid $5,000 for that.

[00:14:51] But they were able to do that. Obviously, maybe there’s smaller targeted shows that are independent. Yeah. That can’t do that. So they have to possibly for that same $5,000, they may be able to add the same value if they have these additional assets

[00:15:05] Tanner Campbell: in play. How does, how does a podcaster, like, I mean, like us, we’re, we’re a small time, you know, we’re here w real talk podcast and we have a lot of experience.

[00:15:14] We own businesses within the audio industry marketing industry, but still, we’re just three guys with small one member, LLC businesses, right? Like, we’re not enormous. So how do people like us or less than us continue to compete in this? Like how, how is it even possible? Do you think? I don’t know, teaming

[00:15:32] Roman Prokopchuk: up like we did at a clubhouse with like-minded people.

[00:15:35] I mean, figuring out, I mean, I think there’s power in numbers and if you can have a lot of like-minded people to band together, And, you know, make some waves. I mean, that may

[00:15:46] Tanner Campbell: be a way to do it. Are we going to see the rise of podcast networks then? Is that what’s going on? It happened. I

[00:15:51] Roman Prokopchuk: mean, I’ve always thought about, because like, like I said, I was, uh, approached last year by a C-suite network, had a few meetings with them, few calls with like the marketing people got their decks.

[00:16:03] I have nothing against them, but, um, in terms of some like how they market their shows and things of that nature, I could, I could already do that. So I was bringing my marketing expertise. I was bringing, you know, my 23,000 LinkedIn connections, which is just a number, which I don’t necessarily care about, but some people like that.

[00:16:23] And you know, in other online assets in play, as well as, you know, they try to sweeten the pot in terms of like cross promoting and getting on other people’s shows, which I’ve been on a lot of C-suite network podcasts already. So it was one of those things where like I already had a vision and it wasn’t necessarily like, I guess the best fit for me.

[00:16:42] So like I envisioned getting X amount of shows and, you know, everybody having a similar vision and having kind of a, I guess, a more fair distribution where it’s like, Somewhat of a collective where people come from all different walks of life and, you know, you have the audio experience. I have the digital experience.

[00:17:01] Some people may have PR or different other public relations assets that they can basically cross promote those on, on different, you know, traditional media and stuff like that. And have this like crazy machine of people, just, you know, sharing ideas and ultimately sharing the profits or the pot kind of equally because.

[00:17:23] Not my experience, but another’s experiences out there, which that relationship in terms of show and network. It’s kind of a lopsided.

[00:17:32] Tanner Campbell: It’s funny that we’re talking about this now because listeners will have no doubt noticed at the beginning of the show, before our normal introduction, there was an ad spot from your tech

[00:17:43] So we have a sponsor now, and it’s interesting that you were saying band together, get the, get more than one person involved because not if I had to do by myself, what all three of us are doing together. First of all, I don’t have your experience or Pedro’s experience. And neither of you have. Mine or the others and the workload to do what we’re doing right now is, I mean, like it’s intense, we’re both, all three of us are running our own personal companies.

[00:18:09] We’re also now running plosive monster media, which a new company just formed in Texas. And we couldn’t do that alone. I couldn’t do that alone. Could you do that alone? I mean,

[00:18:17] Roman Prokopchuk: not to that extent, I would have to have like junior level employees or people with not as much experience because having 13 years of experience, I still wouldn’t be able to right off the bat, hire somebody with like 20 years of experience or even that 20 years, depending on the field you’re in, that’s not necessarily relevant just because you have 20 years of experience.

[00:18:35] Doesn’t mean you’re more experienced that somebody has. You know, half that time in that industry

[00:18:40] Tanner Campbell: than people who are starting podcasts now in, during this pandemic time and hoping that it’s going to last, would you agree that they should be approaching it with a more business sensibility if they really want to try to make it into anything more than.

[00:18:53] An art project. I know there’s, there might be some pushback here from listeners who are going to say things like, well, you don’t have to make money Tanner. And you know, my position on this is like, well, you don’t have to, but if you’re trying to change the world with your art project or make, you know, do have impact in some way, even if you don’t consider yourself a business, like if you have no money and your podcast can make impact, if you have money, your podcasts can make more impact and do more good.

[00:19:17] And I feel like. If you don’t eventually have that money conversation, no matter what the motivation for your podcast is, you are not gonna.

[00:19:25] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. And even if you’re not thinking about like monetizing your money right off the bat, you should still treat it like a business, have a plan, you know, have a workflow.

[00:19:35] Basically make things as streamlined as possible to save you time, because if you’re by yourself and you’re, you can outsource anything. That means you’re going to be recording yourself. You’re going to be editing yourself. You’re going to be putting everything up in terms of your. Audio hosts yourself.

[00:19:52] You’re going to be putting the show notes. Uh, you’re going to be transcribing. You’re going to be making all the social media assets so on and so forth. So figuring out what the best process would be like in a business, you know, have a plan and then have a, you know, Uh, standard operating procedure for each part or each moving part.

[00:20:13] And I always recommend get a project management system, regardless of, you know, how I guess, professional or nonprofessional you consider yourself. So you can actually figure out as you start. Okay. This takes me. You know, two hours to do. Maybe I can do this thing a little differently and it’ll take me a half hour and people that are extremely busy because I think everyone’s busy in one way or another.

[00:20:36] That may be something that will keep them, uh, attached and interested and motivated in terms of. Continuing their podcasts to maybe to a point where they reach, where they can monetize. And, you know, a lot of people get into podcasting and have the dreams and hopes of, you know, being the next Joe Rogan or leaving their day job to, you know, podcast full time.

[00:20:58] You can’t really do that without a plan. So having some kind of plan when you first start, regardless if it’s a passion project or you’re considering it all only an art form. I think it will take you a lot longer than the alternative or a lot further.

[00:21:12] Tanner Campbell: So it’s really coming down to either. You have got to have the plan that you just described and you’ve got to be a hundred percent plan strategy marketing.

[00:21:21] You really have to hit the pavement running or. You have to be such an incredibly good creator that maybe you can get away with not having the strategy and the plan and the marketing, and you can be a one-man or one-woman or two men, whatever it is banned and have it work because not only we’re talking about the ad problem, maybe, but, but we should also be talking about the fact that as the number of podcasts grow 2 million, they become 3 million.

[00:21:50] The stockpile of available content is still there. Even if it’s not being actively produced anymore, it’s still there to compete with the share of the ear, share of the average listener. And this kind of ties into the conversation about clubhouse, whether or not it’s going to kill pie casting. Of course it won’t.

[00:22:08] However, when there’s a new thing that people want to spend their time engaging with, that’s less time they have to engage overall. And so it’s not a podcast killer, but it is a time absorber, a time blocker, right? It’s taking up some of that time that you have. And so we’ve got this stockpile of podcasts.

[00:22:26] More people are podcasts, it’s more competition. And we have big money in the space. Now, Spotify originals are coming. We’ve got Gimlet is making great content. Of course, they were always doing that. We’ve got, we’ve got real money, real talent. Q code is making really great stuff within the audio drama and immersive storytelling spaces.

[00:22:45] How in the heck are you going to compete with that? If you don’t have either as much talent or a hell of a strategy and marketing plan and the answer is, I don’t think you’re going to period. Yeah, you have to

[00:22:58] Roman Prokopchuk: have something unique. Well, In terms of you being a personality, your content being. Up to par of like those big pre production outfits, or you just have to be a hustler and good at something else, like really marketing or building relationships where you can hit the ground running and really kind of amplify that because you know, with more shows, there’s more, more noise.

[00:23:21] You have to give a listener a reason to listen to your show versus the 2 million others. So you’re always kind of competing for attention.

[00:23:40] Tanner Campbell: all right. Second half of the show, we managed to talk pretty long without Pedro here. Roman, how about that? First question comes from ed Okamoto, who asks for tips and strategies may be on how to structure. The notes of a podcast episode as you’re recording it or how to order your segments, basically. How do you structure a show and Roman you have an interview style show.

[00:24:03] So I guess we can start with your show. How do you structure your show?

[00:24:07] Roman Prokopchuk: So my show is conversational, but it revolves usually around four questions, which then expand on the conversation because I learn more things about the guest and can ask follow up questions or kind of piggyback on what they’re saying.

[00:24:21] So the first question is usually what’s been your journey to now, which obviously is the most long winded answer. And then from that, I’ll pick a few things and then go into them a little bit more deeply than what motivates the guest, a weakness they’ve turned into a strength and then what advice they have for the audience and in between those four questions, it’s a back and forth, low key conversation.

[00:24:43] But those questions basically develop the rest of the conversation and I’ve, you know, Tested other questions in terms of like getting the reaction or getting people to talk or dive a little bit deeper, but that sequence, that order and those four questions have worked well in terms of like getting the information out of people and making people feel comfortable.

[00:25:03] So it’s broken down in those four kind of, I guess, segments per question. But then within that, it’s like, you know, sub conversations within that. So I don’t know if I meant it to be like that, but. It’s structured around four questions, but it’s a low key back and forth conversation. So you have a skeleton then?

[00:25:19] Yeah. It’s like a rough outline. And sometimes I don’t necessarily even hit all four because we go like totally off tangent. But I feel like in that moment, that conversation needed to be had. So like for example, and it depends how like, You know, rigid you are with your show in terms of the interview.

[00:25:34] Like, no, we have to stick to this outline or, you know, wherever it goes, it goes, I mean, I’ve been, I’ve done a lot of interviews on a lot of other shows. I went on a business show and literally the person was interested because he had a stereotypical view of what the foster system was like. And you know, what foster parents really live through.

[00:25:53] So for that hour long show, 40 minutes was spent talking about foster care. And I think it was good because it was a needed conversation, but I think you have to have that, I guess, you know, space and let yourself go there and it be okay if the conversation. Go is in a totally different direction for me, that works because when I listen back, those are some of the best conversations I’ve had and some of the most raw ones, because it’s just in the moment where that person is so comfortable, they’re willing to deviate away from like the framework of what they were willing to discuss and really go deeper in themselves and pull these things.

[00:26:30] So for you,

[00:26:30] Tanner Campbell: it’s that the bullet points keep you safe. In case things get thinned out, you have something you have like a stepping stone to jump to, to save the conversation. But for the most part for you, you’re, you’ve got these way points, you know, they’re there, but you really go with the flow. You’re, you’re riffing with whoever you’re speaking with and you’re comfortable doing that.

[00:26:49] So you’re a structure is loose with a scallop. Yeah.

[00:26:53] Roman Prokopchuk: And, and you’re not always going to be that comfortable. I mean, episode one, I was definitely not. That comfortable, but now recording, I guess, having recorded on the digital Savage experience, about 330 episodes at this point, it’s just like you’re jumping in and it’s a one-on-one conversation and there’s really no nervousness regardless of the level of the guests that just, you know, I’m on the Amman, the actual interview to really learn about that person.

[00:27:18] And not only them. Come on and get value, you know, from being on my show, but I’m looking to get value from them and a different perspective and learning something about myself through their experience becomes

[00:27:28] Tanner Campbell: less about your performance and more about your genuine interest in having the conversation.

[00:27:33] Yeah.

[00:27:33] Roman Prokopchuk: And I think that opens up the conversation the best way you can structure it as best as you want, but if it’s like, Super forced, super rigid. And you don’t necessarily immerse yourself within that story. You know, it’s not going to be a great experience for the guest or you and the audience is going to get a sense.

[00:27:50] And they’re going to hear that lack of chemistry. I

[00:27:53] Tanner Campbell: think as well for my show, it’s a little bit different, uh, help the podcast is me delivering a single. Solid point and advice. So for example, we want to talk about microphone choice, or we might talk about, um, loudness, normalization, why it’s important, how you do it, the whole reason it exists, uh, the history of it.

[00:28:11] And so I have a static set of information that I know that I want to deliver. So for me structuring my personal podcast, which is one of those podcasts that’s currently in that fade. Because I don’t think I’ve made an episode for it. Since with, since we started doing this, that’s all about me sitting down and actually scripting the entire thing.

[00:28:29] So it’s about eight to 10 minutes long and I write a script and I perform that script as if I was a voice actor. That’s how I structure that show. So we have an example of a monologue structure. Which is a script for me. And then we have an example, an example of an interview structure, which is Roman show.

[00:28:46] And of course Pedro’s not here to weigh in and I won’t speak for him, but we can talk about this show. This show is the most structured of any show I think I’ve ever done. Is it for you as well? Roman? Yeah,

[00:28:57] Roman Prokopchuk: I think it would be the most structured just based on doing that additional research to begin with that each of us have a unique talking point, usually as it relates to our expertise or something that we can, you know, chime in and add value to, or another layer to that discussion.

[00:29:13] And then obviously, We have the component of having questions from people from clubhouse and people that listen from other places, which is kind of a effort where we’re getting these and having sessions to get these questions out to people add value that way. So I think like the way it should structured and the information that we have to get from all these multiple places and, you know, creating a framework and discussing the topics amongst ourselves before actually doing the show, I would agree with you.

[00:29:42] Yes it’s. It’s. The most structured. I think that I’ve been on in terms of like the, the shows that I’ve guessed it on, which is like 120 at this point. Uh, I think it would be the most structure out

[00:29:53] Tanner Campbell: of it as well. And the tool that we’re using to do this, and it’s not the only one out there is you can use Trello, you can use Evernote, really.

[00:30:01] You can use any note taking program. We use notion dot S O. And so what we’re looking at right now, if you could see what we could see. Roman’s on screen, I’m on screen. We can see each other and, you know, hand signal to one another. If we need to interrupt or something like that, but we don’t really do that.

[00:30:16] We just kind of interrupt each other and then fix it in post. But we also have a screen share that’s up right now. That is the tab in our browser. That is all our talking points. So we have it broken down by episode, and then we have housekeeping. And then the order of who takes the first. News points will change in this week.

[00:30:33] It’s Roman then me and then we have a section for listener questions and there’s three questions in the listener section. So as we work through the show, these are all located in toggle menus or collapsible, accordion menus. And so as we work through the show, we expand a new section and close the previous one and just kind of stay on target.

[00:30:51] Now there’s a lot of stopping. I mean, like there’ll be a noise in my house. We’ll stop. We’ll have crosstalk and that gets edited out. But. This is. And like you just said, Roman F for me too, it’s the most structured show I’ve ever been involved in producing and been involved in co-hosting uh, usually I’m fly by the seat of my pants or scripted out as if it were a performance.

[00:31:13] I like for example, but what I do on the fireside chats, I’m very comfortable in that environment. This is actually hard for me. Do you find structuring episodes Roman, to be hard? Is that maybe why you don’t

[00:31:25] Roman Prokopchuk: do it? No. I mean, uh, like when I first switched to a interview format, I used to structure a little bit more, but I mean, conversations went outside of that regardless.

[00:31:37] And the way I conduct the interview, I’ll carry it to a point where it gets to a point where I sent it naturally can end. Like if we start overlapping and go back to something that we discussed and discuss it kind of again, That’s usually naturally when it’s time to kind of wind down. So I think like I’ve become better at different signals of the guest.

[00:31:58] And then basically, like, I understand my, my time. So I try to stay between, I would say 25 and 45 minutes. Obviously, if a conversation is super in depth or in depth or people really get into, you know, a lot of emotions or start working through some things, you know, inside or connecting it to something.

[00:32:18] I’m more than willing to go over, but I feel like being too, too structured, if it’s just like me interviewing somebody for me, it doesn’t necessarily lead to an interview that I’m passionate about. But if I have a framework or a loose outline, I can really learn more about the person and really the w the way I like my goal of an interview is to have that interview be unique to just my show.

[00:32:44] So if that person has done 500 other interviews, if somebody listens to the one I do with them, they’ve never heard those talking points or them describe their life, or, you know, aspects of, you know, things that they overcome in the manner that they’ve discussed them with me.

[00:33:00] Tanner Campbell: So I think then in, in summary for you ed, if I was going to suggest a way, and then Roman can, if I were going to suggest a way to structure a show, it is to start with knowing what it is you want to deliver.

[00:33:13] As far as information is concerned, or entertainment is concerned and make sure that you know that going into it. So you’re not wandering all over the place. If there’s a point you’re trying to deliver information, you’re trying to deliver entertainment. You’re trying to provide no that going into it.

[00:33:29] And then try to place in a bullet point list, kind of like how Roman does the things that make sense in chronological order, how you might get through the delivery of that information or entertainment. I would think at least start with bullet points. And as you get more comfortable as a podcast creator producer host, you will be able to do these things less.

[00:33:53] So relying on. The documentation that you might have up, like we have ours operate now, but I will tell you that, what is this Roman, this is our seventh episode. I think that this might be the most loose, comfortable episode we’ve done so far. Do you feel that? I feel that way.

[00:34:08] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. And I think like with everything else, it gets a little easier.

[00:34:12] You start using that muscle, whatever you’re focusing on and you build it up and you build a little bit of consistency and a little comfort and you. If you have co-hosts, you kind of start feeling the styles out and how you can best bounce off of each other. And it, you know, becomes better and, and changes over time.

[00:34:30] But I think that change is needed. So if you’re starting at point a and you have a loose structure or outline or framework, don’t think you need to stay with it through episode 100, 200, 300, you know, bless you. If you get to that high of a, you know, episodes, if you listen back and you listen through your progression, Your show will change with you.

[00:34:49] Like, I think my show changed with me because I first switched to interview format when my grandfather passed away. And that was like a big loss for me. And I think switching to an interview format helped me in the grieving process because I learned about people when their losses and things they’ve overcome and actually like helped me cope with it and, you know, make it bearable.

[00:35:09] So I have that personal connection and like, I change with that. So I have that personal touch now with it. And I think there’ll be different milestones in your personal life or professional life that connect to your show that may impact your show and the way it’s structured as

[00:35:24] well.

[00:35:25] Tanner Campbell: Our next question comes from Jeff , uh, who has clubhouse Jeff on clubhouse.

[00:35:30] He’s also the creator of make anything He has a YouTube channel by the same name, make anything easy. Probably one of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Is he not like always like cheerful, helpful, always in a good mood. I don’t know how he does it. He must consume endless amounts of caffeine and sugar.

[00:35:51] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. If it’s in the middle of the day, we got like three in the morning. The dude is always even key in terms of like always being grateful and helpful and adding as much value as he can.

[00:36:00] Tanner Campbell: So I can so check out, make anything Don’t worry. I didn’t pass to say this. He’s just a really good dude. Uh, so he’s asking, he spends a lot of time traveling.

[00:36:10] He’s setting up this really cool studio in his home, but he still travels a lot and he’s wanting some general advice on. Good mobile kits. Like something that makes it easy to create a podcast episode on the go. So rather than try to answer this in real time, because we didn’t have this scripted out as far as what the suggestions would be.

[00:36:31] I think that Roman, if you think it’s a good idea, maybe we can workshop after the show involved Pedro as well and create a blog entry on the site.

[00:36:40] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. I agree since Pedro is the road warrior out of us three

[00:36:44] Tanner Campbell: travels across this great nation with a Rubbermaid tub, with all of his stuff in it. Has he ever

[00:36:50] Roman Prokopchuk: sent you a picture of that?

[00:36:51] Yeah, he’s like the bad max of podcasting. He’s our

[00:36:54] Tanner Campbell: man. He’s our man with a gear plan. So Jeff. Real talk, Check out the blog this week. We’ll ping you when it’s up, hate to waylay your brother, but I know you’re going to appreciate it. And then our last question, before we wrap it up for episode seven is going to be from Miriam who asks how podcasters can get better at identifying their audience.

[00:37:11] And I know that Robin, I think you’re going to have a lot to say on this, which is why I saved it for last. Most people, myself included. I think Roman would probably admit himself included. When you start trying to create for a community, you make assumptions at the outset about who your quote unquote target market is, what they look like, what their demographic is, how old they are, what gender they might be, what they’re interested in.

[00:37:36] And you’re almost always wrong until you do something too. Find out whether or not you’re right. Uh, and most podcasters don’t know how to do this, or don’t do it at all. If they do know how to do it, I utilize Facebook, pixel and ads to determine for myself, Roman, you probably have some, even more advanced ways of doing it than just Facebook pixel tracking.

[00:37:57] Cause you got Google, Google tag manager. So like you, if you were just starting a podcast, Roman. How would you go about identifying who your target audience was instead of just guessing how would you find out whether or not you were right or wrong?

[00:38:10] Roman Prokopchuk: Well, one have some kind of hypothesis or framework ahead of time.

[00:38:15] Like you said, either do it on the persona level or several personas. You think you will be reaching or on a. Cohort level, which is little, little bit, you know, born broader or an audience

[00:38:27] Tanner Campbell: cohort for

[00:38:27] anybody

[00:38:27] Roman Prokopchuk: who might not know the term. So persona is an individual core cohort is a grouping of people that have a few similarities and then segment as there is like several things unique to a group, but that group is like a large enough audience, you know, a pool.

[00:38:43] Persona would be like, you know, males living in North America that are, you know, 25 to 44 that are into X games or similar sports, like motor cross or something of that nature that are baking. I mean, if you want to do it on like the, the earning potential to that are usually like in these kinds of roles and this is their, you know, salary, so different platforms will do it for you in terms of like who you’re reaching from a paid search perspective, if you know that information, but having a framework of like who the audience is.

[00:39:18] Okay. Your show is about. You know, we have someone in, in our, uh, you know, night group in our, in our groups or rooms in clubhouse that has a, you know, gardening podcast. Now at this point, she’s done it for a while. So if I asked her, she knows, you know, if there’s more men or women, why like what type of gardening do men do versus women.

[00:39:38] And really build that out in terms of the information you can deliver for specific. Groups, listening to the show. And then when you have like, I mean, she has that at this point, cause it’s established show, but if you define something, that’s like a rough framework. When you have that, then you can test it.

[00:39:54] Then you can start running things, like you said, you can have a tracking pixel and then understand and get insights about that. Audience get different, uh, a remarketing list in terms of identifying other like commonalities or features. And that’s why I recommend, if you do have a podcast, have a, you know, a website in unison.

[00:40:15] So then you can get actual insights like handed to you in terms of engagement with that site. How many people actually listened on the site in terms of the embeddable player, or if you have. A, uh, blog post format of each individual episode with the embedded episode, understand that. And hopefully that makes up a large enough percentage of that listenership.

[00:40:38] But if you have supporting content, you also understand like what interests them. Besides the actual episodes. So, you know, on real talk podcasting at this point, we have several articles, so we know how people interact or engage, and there’s an actual, uh, user flow where we can see if somebody, you know, landed on a specific episode.

[00:41:00] If they went somewhere else, where did they go after that episode? If there may be interested in something related to it, maybe they will to that related article. And then we can obviously track them by age, different other behavioral metrics by location, patient in the world, by device and so on and so forth that then if we know all that and, and to your point, the more data you have.

[00:41:24] The more clearly you can understand who your audience really is because when you’re first starting out, as you mentioned, you may think one group is going to make the main listenership of your show. And you may be shocked that there’s a totally different group of people out there that really enjoy your content.

[00:41:41] Tanner Campbell: It’s going to be men living in the us between 20 and 50, but it ends up being women living in Syria between 13 and 22, for some reason. And you were totally wrong. And if you’d never been collecting information, you could have never figured that out. So that was a lot, let’s slow it down a little bit and maybe give, is there a basic strategy Roman, that you might suggest that someone just starting out?

[00:42:05] We know they have to have a podcast and they ought to have a website. So step one, what we get? We install Google analytics, the website.

[00:42:14] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. Install, Google analytics obviously have tag manager on the site. If you’re going to run something from the, uh, paid, paid social perspective. So Facebook tracking pixel, if you’re running things on other platforms, install that as well.

[00:42:29] So you can really understand the people that are being driven to your website. And even before that, creating that framework of who do you think that person, the person listening is? I think creating who they, who that person is, and also. And in parallel to that, who you want that person to be ideally

[00:42:52] Tanner Campbell: as well, moving into the Facebook part of it.

[00:42:55] Cause that’s something that I spend a lot of time doing. It’s something I teach my students how to do. And I’m happy to talk about it for a minute here without trying to be too overwhelming, because I know that a lot of what Roman just said, and maybe some of what I will say right now for some podcasters, especially just starting out can be a little bit intimidating.

[00:43:11] I will keep that in mind and try not to talk too much shopper. Use lingo to make myself seem cooler or smarter first chef to have a podcast than you have to have to have a podcast website. And this podcast website should be a website which allows you to install, tracking tags. A lot of podcast hosting providers out there, Libsyn.

[00:43:33] I’m pretty sure. Simple cast will allow you to put your Facebook tracking pixel on the websites that they give you. I’m not sure about your Google analytics, but if you can, it’s probably a better idea to have a podcast website that’s a little bit more in your control. So a WordPress podcast website would be.

[00:43:54] A great one to have, uh, and I’m talking about we’re, not We’re as a hosted solution by WordPress, the company, is a self hosted solution. And again, I’m going to try to not get into the weeds and hosted in self hosted solutions, but it would be better to have a more robust website than to have the website that comes from captivator simple Castro or whatever.

[00:44:17] But if that’s all, you can start with those ones that I mentioned, allow you to put tracking tags on the S on the page. And so that’s better than nothing. In order to have tracking tags to place on the page, you have to have a Facebook account. Pretty much everybody has one of those. You also have to have a Facebook page because when you run ads on the Facebook platform, you run it as a page.

[00:44:38] So you’ll have to have a Facebook page and then you will need to create a Facebook ads account, which will necessitate that you create a Facebook business account. And all this sounds like a lot of steps, but it’s really, you just go to You click. Create business and you have a business account from inside the business account.

[00:44:56] You can create a page and you can create an ads account. It is as easy as I’m describing it. It’s just a bunch of clicks. And maybe I’ll do a tutorial on the website about how to walk through this. Uh, if I can create any more businesses in Facebook business manager, I might actually be at the limit. So if I can’t create one myself, I’ll find a tutorial that I will share on the website so that you can see this happening.

[00:45:16] Once you have a business account with Facebook, which is free by the way, and then ads account also free. And a page also free. You can create a pixel and it will give you some code that you can then go paste wherever your website is hosted. Then you create an ad using Facebook ads and you target, and you can forward slash the number five to see my $5 a day, Facebook ad strategy, which is, uh, it’s free to see, you know, you don’t have to give me your email address or anything.

[00:45:46] It’s just up there on the website. That’s the short link for it. We’ll put it in the description. You run that ad and you target the people. That you think are your target audience and you send them to your website. Now that strategy that I mentioned is going to send you instead to Apple podcasts. But if what you’re trying to do is discover the kinds of people that are actually your target audience.

[00:46:09] You’re going to want to send that traffic to your website. So maybe the individual post for an episode could be the link that the ad goes to. As people click on that link, they go to your website. The pixel identifies things about them and the more people who click on the ad and visit the website, the more the pixel burns.

[00:46:27] And eventually the pixel is smart enough. You can create a look alike audience based on the data that it’s collected. So now you run an ad with audience targeting. That is a look alike audience. And now that Facebook pixel, as it continues to gain data over the months and years to come. That lookalike audience gets more and more correct.

[00:46:48] And while you will never know that your target audience all lives in Norway and are Norwegian whalers, Facebook knows, and that’s who they’re going to show your ads to. And so your conversion for clicks and traffic and all those things will go up. So you’ll be able to create ad campaigns that actually target the kind of people who are most likely to engage with your content.

[00:47:09] Roman, if you do Google ads, I have absolutely no experience in Google ads. I imagine this is a little bit more complicated on the Google end

[00:47:15] Roman Prokopchuk: or is it, I mean, yes and no. I mean, you have a traditional, uh, search ads. You have a display and then you in the same. Uh, ads manager or Google ads, suite, if you will, you have YouTube as well, which is its own beast.

[00:47:34] So obviously you can, you know, promote a certain video. You can have, uh, different embedded links. You can have different other formats on YouTube as well. So yes, it’s similar. But I’m a little bit more different in terms of kind of like the ad sense. So ideally you need, you know, two to three ads in terms of rotation to get a good idea of what’s working and rotate those out per ad group and then other considerations as well.

[00:48:04] Um, in order to kind of really define

[00:48:06] Tanner Campbell: your audience. If, if only Roman you would be willing to create a one Oh one course on how to set this up, if only would you do that, would you do that for our listeners?

[00:48:17] Roman Prokopchuk: Yeah. I mean, there’s a possibility to do so.

[00:48:20] Tanner Campbell: Okay. Well, we’ll keep, we’ll keep everybody posted because I can’t teach, but Rome, what Roman does.

[00:48:25] I can just teach Facebook ads. Uh, so maybe keep your eye on the website for things to come, who knows we might be working on secret stuff that I’m trying not to give away right now. Yeah, I

[00:48:34] Roman Prokopchuk: mean, in terms of, I hate I’ve, I’ve tested a lot of traffic sources, so Reddit, Cora, uh, you know, Twitter, uh, LinkedIn, different formats, Facebook, you know, Instagram, obviously within that, uh, Google and being.

[00:48:49] So in terms of like, you know, paid search and paid social and, you know, display and video. I’ve tested a lot. And have, you know, spent a lot of money for clients to do so.

[00:49:02] Tanner Campbell: So in short Merriam, there’s a lot to do. It can be, I think, intimidating, especially if you have zero marketing experience, no familiar, no familiarity with Google analytics or tag manager or paid search or.

[00:49:16] Paid advertising paid social Facebook ads, Facebook business account. It can sound like a lot to do. And I would say that if you’ve never done it before, you’re probably looking at a solid day worth of setup. Not because it would take someone who knew what they were doing that long, but as someone who would be learning and doing it the first time, probably following along with a tutorial of some kind, it would probably take you a day.

[00:49:40] To get things set up, uh, and it would probably take you another few days to start to get comfortable and really feel like you knew your way around those platforms. At least in the case of Facebook and you’ll make mistakes. And some of the money you spend, you will waste, uh, which is why the $5 a day ad strategy I mentioned.

[00:49:58] And again, we’ll link in the description of this episode is a good and safe place to start, because if you can absorb five bucks a day, Which I realize isn’t nothing. Then you can start determining your target audience, really identifying them for realsies instead of what you think without spending too much money.

[00:50:15] I know I’ve seen people jump into Facebook ads and drop like a grand in a month and they had no idea what they were doing. And they were paying like 1850 per click or something. It was really terrible. So keep the, keep the spend low, you can still have some good results and it’s all about. It’s all about testing in the interim rights testing at the beginning before you spend any serious money, because you can get pretty good results with almost, I mean, live $5 a day.

[00:50:42] In fact, Roman we’re at the end. Now we’ve done a whole episode without Pedro. Do we need him back? Do we need to invite him back? What do you think? Yeah, I think

[00:50:52] Roman Prokopchuk: we’re, we’re nice like that. So we’re not gonna, you know, w what show was that you are the weakest link. Goodbye. What is, what is that? Was that the Prentice

[00:50:59] Tanner Campbell: was out it, I think it was just the weakest link, I think is what it was called.

[00:51:02] Roman Prokopchuk: I was that it was something like that. I don’t know what they did with Trump did on that apprentice show, but, um, I guess you’re fine. He said, right? Yeah. We’re not firing

[00:51:09] Tanner Campbell: Pedro. If any of our road casters break, we will know how to fix them. Pedro literally knows everything about gear, so we need them desperately.

[00:51:16] Pedro, please come back to us. We’re all scared here without you. And to mention our sponsor. One more time, your tech We’re really thankful to Mark and your tech for taking a risk on us. We’re a brand new show. We’re not like drowning in the downloads over here. Right. We’re getting a few hundred downloads per episode at this point, I think.

[00:51:33] Uh, and it’s really cool of him to come on and give us a shot and see how it works. So thanks Mark. You’re the jam and FYI to anybody wondering if we just took any sponsor, who’d throw money at us. Mark is also a friend of mine. He’s got a lot of knowledge in the tech and consumer gear space and is just a really genuinely good dude.

[00:51:56] He has a show up on a Canada radio on Sirius XM by the same name, your tech report. And he’s just a good guy. So definitely go check out the knowledge he has. He’s recently done a video. That’s a comparison. Of the M one Mac mini, for those of you who might be considering purchasing it and like the traditional, like huge like $17,000 Mac pro the desktop, and you would be amazed at how not.

[00:52:27] Too much weaker than iMac many would the M one ship is when compared to that $17,000 build that Mark has in his production studio. It is slower. Of course the pro is better, but not by so much that it would justify those tens of thousands of dollars in additional span. So he does some really cool stuff.

[00:52:46] He brings it down to the level of the consumer, understanding it and not getting too deep into like binary or like geek speak, you know? He does a really good job. So go check him out your tech And thanks again to you, Mark for sponsoring us Roman. That’s it buddy. Rowdy here. You got any last words?

[00:53:04] Great

[00:53:04] Roman Prokopchuk: episode. I mean, we took it, I guess, over an hour together. So, uh, you know, great episode number seven, lucky number seven. So appreciate you. Appreciate the show. You know, stay bless everybody. Take care.

[00:53:18] Tanner Campbell: Thanks for listening to another episode of real talk podcasting. The three of us appreciate you being here and hope to see you back again.

[00:53:24] Next week, our music is licensed through art and features the artist kick tracks. We’ll talk. Podcasting is a production of plosive monster media and is made possible by you. Our listeners, if you have questions, suggestions, or press inquiries, where we’d like to appear as a guest on our show.

[00:53:42] Please send an email to


Find the RTP Podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, including:

Home » Blog » Episode 007: Two-Million Podcasts (But Not Really)

Leave a Comment